$$$ burning a hole in my pocket

[Wanna B]

Here a good one for all you tech-heads out there. Assuming there is no concern around relative cost, which would provide the greatest opportunity for improvement in performance: power measurement based training (a-la powertap or SRM), or power cranks?

[2nd2fignon]

I've looked into this briefly myself. My conclusion was that SRM may be (slightly) more accurate but the cost is not justified IMHO.

For the $1700US price differential you might consider an early season training camp down south or a set of fast wheels. One way to look at it is, will you go faster (get better results) if you have a slightly more accurate readout of power or if you use faster wheels? Some people consider Zipp 404s to be worth an advantage of 1.5 mph at the same effort, over standard profile wheels.

I know what I would choose, but it's just one perspective regarding your question.

[Chuck Norris]

Hiring a coach is usually the best bang for the buck. I hear there's some guy in London who knows his shiit. Chris Somethingorother.

As far as equipment goes, nothing I've ever used has been as useful as the Power Tap. The caveat is that you have to actually use it methodically rather than just look at the pretty numbers.

Combining the ability to measure your output with a coach who monitors and evolves your program makes sense. Particularly if you're new to the sport.

[Wanna B]

Hiring a coach is usually the best bang for the buck. I hear there's some guy in London who knows his shiit. Chris Somethingorother.
Combining the ability to measure your output with a coach who monitors and evolves your program makes sense. Particularly if you're new to the sport.

Chuck - I am familiar with this Chris Somethingorother a.k.a. Sensei and have been his pupil for 18 months. Gains have been significant under his tutelage but I am seeking the means to not only accelerate but also to maximize the benefits of his wise oversight.

I have trusted him blindly, but have begun to realize the fruits of my labour. IYHO would he be able to montior a power based program and evolve it in a way to make the best use of it?

[Chuck Norris]

I would automatically assume yes, but that's best left between you and Sensei. I'm looking forward to seeing what sort of gains I can get from the coach/PT combo next year.

[Chris Helwig]

Wanna B,

A power meter would certainly be an effective tool we could utilize. I use Cyling Peaks Software for date anaysis and analysis such things are total stress scores, normalized powers, critical power etc. I used power in my own training last season and have several clients whose files I analyse for them.

Likely the best bet is to get a powertap that is laced on pretty fast and light rim. I had a powertap laced into a standard 32 hole rim and although I loved the data, the wheel was pretty heavy even for Scotland road. If you got it laced into something a little more light and trick then you could use it for training and also for some races. SRM's are faboulous, but about twice the price of a Powertap.

[SIBO]

Power Cranks arent in the same ballpark? Those electronic gizmos show you what you are doing so you are aware and can improve. The Powercranks actually change the way you ride to increase your power and make you a better rider..... If your form sucks it sucks, you can fix your form with cranks then watch the numbers with the Gizmos. The wireless powertap is the way to go. you can put it on clients bikes and with a aditional hardware kit on your bike watch their numbers while riding with them .. One little flaw with the powertap. some racers would pick up other riders close by and see what their numbers were and attack when the time was right.....Sweet.

[Wanna B]

Power cranks - Sibo, you're comments about sucky pedaling technique could be well founded in my case and you're comments are consistent with the vendor literature. I have read reviews however about people initially hating them so much that they wanted to quit cycling. I know you've started using them, what's you're experience been like?



Power measurement - there seems to be a real bias towards the PowerTap system in the posts so far. My concern with PT is how to address training vs racing. If there is value in data collection for both racing and training it would mean that I would need to have my Reynolds Stratus wheel rebuilt with a PT hub and that my DuraAce wheel set would gather dust in the basement since I would have to replace them with something else to accommodate the 2nd hub. This means buying the system, having a wheel rebuilt and buying a second wheelset with PT hub for training.

At the end of the day given the above might it be equally economical to go with SRM?

I'm sure Sibo could get me a killer deal....

[Chuck Norris]

My limited experience with the PT showed that compared to training data, race data was useless. It's a pure training tool for me. I'd never even bother with it in a RR or crit unless I knew I was going to be in a small break. Then, it might be useful to pace yourself at TTT outputs. For a back marker like me, it's just not worth the expense or the bother to race with one.

[Graydon]

Power cranks definitely aren't a whole lot of fun to ride, but depending on what you are starting with, they can offer noticeable improvements to your ride. My .02: get the "locking" ones. Nothing like being 1.5 hours from home and your hip flexors explode. Having the lockout is a comforting thought if you still want to keep up your training volume.

As for power meters, you have to think about what you are going to use the power numbers for? Do you really need to have power numbers from races? What will that tell you, given how variable race conditions/efforts/etc... can be? What do you think will happen to your power numbers if you are at the front vs. if you are sitting on a wheel? What are your goals during races? Do you honestly go out and blow yourself up every race? Unless your name is Charlie, I think many of us try to "conserve" a little during certain parts of the races to optimize our chances to make the break, attack, take the sprint, etc... It is concievable you could win a race putting out much less power than in a race you got dropped, or vice-versa. How will you ever know for sure if you are getting better? Or worse?

In contrast, I use a powertap only in training, because in my opinion, it's the opposite scenario of racing: controlled, reproducible, and most importantly, I can always give a known amount of effort in my intervals. The power numbers therefore give me an objective measure of how hard did I go? Did I start this interval too hard? Did I fade at the end? What is my goal to average for this workout? Am I improving? Definitely I'll say that interval training with power is far superior to training with HR alone. No more guess work. Either you have the legs or you don't.

If you don't do intervals, don't bother with power.

[Chris Helwig]

Certainly power isn't a big benefit for pacing in races as you generally want to use the least amount of energy as possible. What I absolutely loved about using a power meter in racing was analyzing the data afterwards. I never really even paid that much attention to what I was at during the race, but after the race the data was very interesting. Ever wonder what your critical power for 1,5,10,20 minutes is in a race situation? How much power can you generate in a finishing sprint in a race situation? What kind of power do you do on climbs? If you get popped, what types of surges and power outputs does it take to put you past your limit? With Cycling Peaks Software you can see so many great breakdowns from race data. You can even determine your functional power threshold simply by analysing a few race files. With race data you can set up interval workouts to simulate race situations and target your weaknesses.

I would argue that power is very effective for training, but also very powerful for getting race data to anaylse.

[the Superstar]

If I can take us on a tangent and answer the question "what are the most important factors to becoming faster?", I would say the most beneficial thing you can do (taking into account the fact that you are already with a coach) is to race aggressively against guys that are much better than you. this will lead to serious suffering, but every time you stretch the envelope, you come back hitting harder. you cannot reproduce this effect in training. it has to be in a race, with all the attendant gutter action, climbing and do-or-die situations. you cannot be afraid of losing or getting dropped. you have to actually get shelled or come close to doing so in order to understand your limits.

[Wanna B]

Superstar - I agree that racing makes you faster. For those of us that are still early on the development curve it's very frustrating to be not quite strong enough to either survive and/or to start actually participating in the race by moving around in the group, bridging, thinking about going with breaks etc.

Road racing is a cruel mistress. If you don't have the legs to stay in you get unceremoniously puked off the back.

This brings me back to my original intent with the thread. Assuming my training volume is fairly optimal (given other obligations), my weight is pretty much in check, I have a coach, I'm probably doing a spring training camp, what else can I do to maximize development?

Got any EPO or HGH? I assume all you back in the day guys are hooked up.:D

[Wanna B]

Power based training seems to be the way to go according to the majority of respondents (Chris, 2nd2fignon, & Mr. Norris) with additional comments from each regarding value of coaching using power based analysis (Mr. Norris), a camp and fast wheels (2nd2fignon) etc.

Sibo looks to be a big proponent of Power Cranks, possibly coupled with power measurement afterwards.

Graydon - from whom I expected some kind of position statement based on his experience with both, and background - gave some good perspective on the use of each without stating a preference that I could see.

Superstar went back to basics with some discussion on how racing is the way to become a better racer.

[2nd2fignon]

IMO, since you already have a coach the power measurement is going to be particularily usefull to you because you will have data you can review with your coach. Results from your interval workouts (Graydon) will be a good indicator of where you're at, where you're going, and if anything needs to be changed in your program.

Regarding Superstar's input ... he's right. Racing is another important piece of the puzzle. Keep at it, with a little patience you'll be hanging in there before you know it.

Don't forget two things about using a coach:

1. Listen to your coach.
2. Be honest with yourself. The nice thing about reviewing your training with a coach is that it forces you to be honest. The power metering will help with this too.

Finally, forget about doping. It's a loser's path to multiple problems. I know you're only joking (I hope), in addition to fraud and cheating I believe that it's a criminal offense to possess the products you mentioned for unintended use without a prescription.

[Wanna B]

Finally, forget about doping. It's a loser's path to multiple problems. I know you're only joking (I hope), in addition to fraud and cheating I believe that it's a criminal offense to possess the products you mentioned for unintended use without a prescription.

Unless WADA, UCI etc decide to ban coffee, gels, granola bars or the dextrose in my e-load I'll be OK. I cycle for fun and fitness and wouldn't risk the possible health issues associated with even the grey area stuff like creatine. My enthusiasm is all driven in the end, rightly or wrongly by the fact that I am the owner of a Type A personality and have this primal need to push.

[Graydon]

I have purposely tried not to state a definitive answer one way or the other, because, as I tried to explain, it all depends on your goals. The first thing I always tell anyone who wants to get a power meter, is to first have them tell me what THEY think they will get out of it. It's a big purchase, so you want to educate yourself going into it.

If you want my personal opinion... interval training with power is definitely superior over training by HR or RPE. I don't use or care for power number during racing, and I don't use it on the MTB for many (mostly practical) reasons. I have tried the Polar unit (serious flaws, don't waste your time), the Power Tap (great, recommended) and the computrainer (great, recommended). Haven't used the SRM (too expensive) or the ergomo (I go through BB's about as often as I go through chains, so I can't see it being a good option). Speaking of the computrainer, it is unique in that it gives you a new, different dimension to training as it controls resistance. Think about how many times you've started an interval and faded near the end. When you set the resistance on the computrainer, you're set. The only variable is cadence. It can really bring out the suffering. Either you turn the pedals or you don't. No coasting, no easing up, no excuses. There are some really interesting (and hard) workouts you can create on the computrainer that you just can't simulate as easily outdoors. If you are a techhead, you'll love it. With a GPS you can even create virtual courses of your favourite outdoor routes and ride them in the winter. The downside is that you have to be ok with putting in a bit of indoor time once in a while, even in the summer. (The upside of riding indoors, is that when your buddies are taking a day off because it is raining, you can still do some seriously killer intervals indoors in an hour or less).

Powercranks... if the money really is burning a hole in your pocket, then get them. You'll suffer, you'll curse, but they will help you. I don't think they improve your max power or max speed, but they can help with endurance (especially if you are prone to back problems), and can make you more efficient at sub-max power outputs. Just be prepared to see a significant drop in your training volume when you first try them (it may take you a couple weeks just to build up to riding an hour continuous). But if you get the locking version, you can turn them on and off as tolerated and still keep up your training.

Finally, software... The Polar software is pretty good for HR stuff, but lacks any meaningful power analysis. The latest incarnation of the PowerTap software is a big improvement of the earlier version and probably ok for most users (although it is a little bulky and slow), but if you crave every single number, stat, etc... you can get your hands on, the CyclingPeaks is probably the way to go. Again, you need to seriously ask yourself... do I actually use those numbers to shape my training... or are they just pretty graphs on the screen?

Finally, the $6-million dollar question: after you buy a power-meter, will it actually change your training (and hopefully make you faster)? If a few months down the road nothing changes other than after rides you download your numbers and see if you are improving/not improving, I say you have wasted your money. You have a new tool, but the tool is only as good as it is used. Knowing how to use it to guide your efforts during intervals training, tempo rides, recovery rides, etc... is the other half to the equation.

Good luck.

[JaJa]

I can olny agree with the Superstar on his thoughts on getting stronger. The lack of regular racing and challenging training rides hurts. Nothing can replace a race!

In my running days often I would go to the park, on the measured course and no matter how hard I tried I could not run faster then on race day.

Just my two cents on racing and training.

JaJa

[rockymtguy]

Hi All,


I have been using a Power Tap for the last 9 months and it has been a great tool for my training and racing. I use specific wattage zones for training and download all my races. I find the race data incredibly helpful. I look at things like cadence and see how much time I spent NOT pedaling and resting for the hard efforts. I am also surprides at how hrad I go in a race and that gives my confidence for my next training sessions.

If I get dropped, yep dropped, I take a look at what I was doing for the 20 minutes before and see if I going to hard or was too inconsistent. I combine that with how I was drinking and eating and come up with a pretty clear picture of what happened.

As someone already mentioned, you have to do more then look at the pretty graph to make this a tool worth buying. The only issue I have found would be using it on a TT bike as mmost people want to have a set of aero wheels for that. Since I don't have a TT bike and am using the TT in all my races to get a good profile of myself it doesn't affect me, but is something to think about.

Cheers,

Rockymtguy