SpiroTiger?

[Wheels]

Has anyone had any experience with the SpiroTiger respiratory endurance trainer?

It looks like a pretty cool concept.


http://www.fact-canada.com/SpiroTiger/spirotiger-respiratory-trainer.html

[SIBO]

Hey Wheels if you give me 900.00 ( Spiro Tiger pricing before tax and shipping) Ill get you something alot better for your application.. That a pretty expensive tool for blowing and sucking dont you think????Try www.powerlung.com

Cheers.....
Sibo

[Graydon]

Powerlung and Spirotiger are actually two completely different training tools. Think weight lifting vs. running. One is strength, the other is endurance, and the effects on O2/CO2 status in you body are significantly different. What you hope to gain from using them will greatly determine which device you want to use. As sibo pointed out, one also costs 10x the other.

Wheels, I've used both, and have actually been working with the guys at FACT canada studying the topic and finding some scientific data of my own to support possible uses of these devices, and of the principles of respiratory muscle training in general. In the spring I hope to do start some full scale studies.

You are right... cool concept indeed. At least from a physiological/research standpoint, there are some really interesting questions to answer.

Graydon

[SIBO]

I have heard tales of my Uncle Eddy training for the Tour using something like the Powerlung. Like the PowerCranks it is training the body to adapt. I dont recomend using the Powerlung the way they recomend. I use it like Uncle Eddy did and I ride with it. The recomended training is 30 inhales 2x a day.... I set it a little lower and use it like a snorkel. My buddie is a serious diver and he can hold his breath for over 2 min while being active and not flinch. Ill use it on the trainer on while puttering around the house and it is feeling pretty good so far...

[Wheels]

Powerlung and Spirotiger are actually two completely different training tools. Think weight lifting vs. running. One is strength, the other is endurance, and the effects on O2/CO2 status in you body are significantly different. What you hope to gain from using them will greatly determine which device you want to use. As sibo pointed out, one also costs 10x the other.

Wheels, I've used both, and have actually been working with the guys at FACT canada studying the topic and finding some scientific data of my own to support possible uses of these devices, and of the principles of respiratory muscle training in general. In the spring I hope to do start some full scale studies.

You are right... cool concept indeed. At least from a physiological/research standpoint, there are some really interesting questions to answer.

Graydon

Graydon,

If you need any test subjects for these studies, let me know.:D

Maybey Juerg will throw in a Spirotiger in return for the test data......... haha.......well its worth a shot.

[Graydon]

I have heard tales of my Uncle Eddy training for the Tour using something like the Powerlung. Like the PowerCranks it is training the body to adapt.

Not too long ago the European 'way' included smoking as part of your regular training program because it made your lungs stronger and more resilient. So what is the powerlung training your body to adapt to? Why is forcing the body to learn to breathe against a resistance beneficial? In a typical road race, what is the resistance against inspiration at the mouth, and is it limiting?



I dont recomend using the Powerlung the way they recomend. I use it like Uncle Eddy did and I ride with it. The recomended training is 30 inhales 2x a day.... I set it a little lower and use it like a snorkel

Good... you are thinking about the real question... what is it that you are trying to train? You have decided that 2x30 forceful inspirations/expirations per day is not what you want, but that perhaps it is better to use lighter resistance for prolonged period of time. But what happens during racing or any hard physical activity? Do the contraction force of your breaths increase? Does the tidal volume increase (or decrease)? Or does frequency increase? Where does the system break down, and is it possible to "learn" to mitigate this response?

There is even a sport-specific response to breathing. Think of the contraints on breathing imposed by running vs swimming vs cycling. As power output increases, the demand for O2 increases. Ventilation is a product of breath frequency x tidal (breath) volume. Think of the parameters that influence frequency in running? In swimming? Do those limitations exist in cycling?

One more point to consider, with every breath, a few hundred mL of air are considered "dead space", or air that you breath in which never gets to your lungs because it occupies the trachea, bronchioles, etc... There is no O2 exchange in these vessels. If exercise intensity demands your muscles need 5 L of O2 per minute, increasing breathing frequency means increases the total amount of dead space per minute. Increasing only tidal volume does not change dead space.


My buddie is a serious diver and he can hold his breath for over 2 min while being active and not flinch. Ill use it on the trainer on while puttering around the house and it is feeling pretty good so far...

Does his breathold ability = success as an endurance athlete? What is the theory behind the idea that the ability to hold your breath for 2-min be a beneficial trait for a cyclist? Is it even a beneficial physiological response for an athlete (i.e. someone who can sustain prolonged breathholds = reduced stimulus to drive respiration vs. someone who is very sensitive to stimulus for increased breathing = more tightly controlled and regulated O2 levels in the blood?) Blood flow to muscle will increase/decrease based on O2/CO2 concentration, and with more blood flow will ultimately come more O2. In otherwords, think of what happens to the O2/CO2 levels in the blood when you hold your breath or do breathing exercises vs what is happening in your body when on the bike at your MAP? Ultimately, what is the physiological adaptation you are looking for, and will it be beneficial?

Graydon

[2nd2fignon]

I think there is a market for these gizmos because most people don't have access to mountains. If you ride up mountains for a couple of years --- you'll work out every issue related to breathing mechanics. All of the stuff that doesn't work will get thrown out and you will end up doing what is most efficient/effective.

This reminds me of running (and I'm not directing this at anyone specific, ;-) ) --- they do all kinds of studies on mechanics, stride length, arm motion, blah, blah, blah, ... Yet world class middle and long distance running is dominated by guys who grew up in straw huts, running in bare feet. The runners you see at the olympics from Kenya are the ones who are: (a) most resilient to injury and (b) those who have worked out all the problems with their mechanics by throwing out the stuff that doesn't work. No lab at Texas A&M is going to help them --- they'll just show them technically why they are so good.

To me this $1000 gizmo looks like something my kids will play with and likely destroy. I guess I'm just too old school. I ride my bike for fun. Hey call me crazy but I don't consider breathing into a bag and staring at a digital readout fun.

[2nd2fignon]

On second thought, after looking at the Powerlung homepage I think I want to get one 'cause something just makes me want to kick that trumpeter's ass.

[Graydon]

22F, your cynicism is not only humourous, but also spot on. If my education, research, or experience has taught me one thing, it is a jaded suspicion of every gizmo, potion, toy, on the market. There is no magic bullet, and if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

For anyone reading this and comptemplating buying this toy or that gizmo, STOP, and ask yourself first, why? As 22F pointed out, there is no substitute for riding your bike. If you want to get fast, choose your parents well, and then train harder, smarter, longer than you have before. Adding more (proper) intensity and volume to your training, and/or finding time to recover better from your training, will go lightyears further in improving your performance than any gadget will. Another way to look at it, $1000 will go a long way to buying some great winter riding clothes (or a lifetime supply of garbage bags?), and if you can do long hard rides outdoors all winter, I guarantee you will be strong in the spring.

That said, I ride my bike for fun, but I'm also a geek, and part of my job is playing with "gadgets" all day. The only difference between me and a 6-year old is I play with much more expensive toys. However, there is real, yet unanswered research question at stake here. Google "metaboreflex". True, riding the mountains will make you efficient as possible, but even in efficient bodies there is a real physiological response to high respiratory loads that is performance limiting in the legs. The swiss, like in chocolate and political non-alignment, have been pioneering respiratory muscle training for some years nows, and the rumours are that their new domination of the world MTB scene isn't solely a result of riding the Alps all day.

[2nd2fignon]

There is no magic bullet, and if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.


To quote Greg Lemond: 'In cycling, there are no miracles'.

In 26 yrs I've never seen a miracle, and I don't expect to see one anytime in the future.

[Graydon]

To quote Greg Lemond: 'In cycling, there are no miracles'.

Ha ha... Speaking of miracles, I still find it odd that Lemond came out of nowhere after he was shot because he started taking iron injections. I wonder if there is any drug that came on the scene around then that would require huge amounts of iron supplements...

[2nd2fignon]

Ha ha... Speaking of miracles, I still find it odd that Lemond came out of nowhere after he was shot because he started taking iron injections. I wonder if there is any drug that came on the scene around then that would require huge amounts of iron supplements...


Gee, I must have missed the long list of people who are ready to say that Greg Lemond was a doper. Unlike the other American to win the tour --- who has a long line of people with related evidence:
- Steven Swart (teammate)
- Emma O'Reilly (his physiotherapist)
- David Walsh
- Jose Luis Rubiera (tells friends of Lance's custom made drugs)
- Franke and Betsy Andreau
- Oakley marketing rep
- Dick Pound
- french drug lab
- J. Vaughters (teammate)
- L'Equipe
- positive cortisone test in '99 tour
- ... gee I'm getting tired of typing (I think you get the idea).

Oh I know, it's all a conspiracy. All of those people mentioned above, along with the entire population of France (all 55 million people), get together weekly to mastermind and execute this complex conspiracy.

I don't know if Greg Lemond was a doper but I do know that he was a much better rider before his 'accident' (that's another story). He was always much better than other riders. In 1989 and 1990 he was much closer to the pack.

He did not come out of nowhere in 1989. At the giro he got stronger and stronger including a 2nd in the 61k TT. BTW, EPO started in 1989 and Lemond has been outspoken about the people who brought it into cycling. A pretty dumb thing to do if you we're an EPO doper.

For anyone interested (who has an hour to kill) you should check out:
http://www.competitorradio.com/details.php?show=21

I think you'll find it interesting and you'll realize that Lemond doesn't sound much like a doper.