Who Makes the Club Races Great?

[the Superstar]

Who are the best attackers in club racing in the last year or two?

I'll give you a list of the guys who really stand out to me as being aggressive and attacking. I'd like to hear from everyone what they think - whose attacks are the most fearsome, whose are not too serious etc etc. My group of notables, in no particular order:

Charlie - probably most effective because they are well timed and backed up by horsepower, also ruthless. if you are weaker than Charlie, this does not lessen his desire to eliminate you.

Graydon - probably the most unanswerable when he really decides to go. does not use this weapon often, but when he does the speed and acceleration are impressive. tempered by the fact that he does not seem to want to ride alone like charlie. when used in the last 700 meters, its game over.

Carlos - very aggressive, very tactically well done, sometimes for himself, sometimes for others.

Julio - also very tactical, and often ends up with a result out of it

Craig Browne - maniac, not tactical at all, 70% balls, 30% fitness, goes when you don't expect it, very productive attacks usually early in the race

Forsdike - not consistent, but once in a while shows surprising power. however not very well metered out - sometimes goes too hard at the start of the break. like botero, on his day up with the best.

Frosst - good long range power, can get away and stay away for long periods and never shy about working. doesn't seem to last to the finish as often as you might expect - perhaps not tactical enough in choosing breakaway partners and/or works too much alone against the might of the field.

[Chris Helwig]

Those are certainly the main big hitters in the club races.

I definately find Charlie's attacks the most persistant and toughest. It isn't just that he attacks hard, it is multiple attacks, sometimes 10-12 attacks per race. Makes it very hard to know which ones to try and go with. I also agree Graydon could potentially be even scarier, perhaps this year with his increased focus on road.

There were some pretty impressive attacks by some of the younger riders this year and a few others that should be mentioned:

Vince DeJong - Aggressive at pretty much every race he was at. Can bridge across to moves pretty easily. Didn't seem to make a lot of winning moves, but was off the front a fair bit. This year with senior gears and another year to mature he could be a big force. He is currently winning a lot of winter track races beating top seniors and masters.

Tim Crosby - Also not afraid to try and has a big engine. He can sprint to boot and had some top 5 finishes this year.

Steve Meyer - Didn't really come on until the end of the year, but was very active in the late season races. He is FAST on the track, routinely winning Saturday races against Senior competition.

Brandon Throop - Active in every race, and does a lot of work pulling moves back that may go unoticed if you aren't paying close attention. Watch for big improvements in 07 and more from him.

Tony - Always getting in moves, and has a real knack to get in the right winning move. Does his fair share once in the moves and has a handy finishing kick

Graham McGee - Off the front quite a bit, especially early in the races. Doesn't seem to be there as much at the end, maybe from doing too much work early.

Kees Lowes - Aggressive and gets in a lot of moves. Can sometimes slip under the radar unless you are paying attention, but he is strong and rides well.

Some other names to add to the list. I apologize if I missed anyone, those are just off the top of my head.

I can't wait until race season!!!!!

[Wheels]

I can't wait until race season!!!!![/QUOTE]



I second that!!!!!!:D

[Graydon]

No one mentioned Paul Dean?

Ha ha, just kidding... he takes it on the chin well doesn't he!

My .02... I've told on a few occasions to some of the younger or new riders on Tuesday nights... get on Tony, Julio, or Carlos' wheel and don't leave them. Carlos is sometimes more difficult to predict because he will sacrifice himself for others some nights, but overall, those guys know where to be and when to go. After a few nights and you'll find yourself getting in the right moves and finishing well.

When I first got off the dirt and tried my hand on the road, there was one other person who was quite tough to beat in the sprints... then he trained with me one winter and hasn't been the same since, but he's stopped that and I predict 2007 will see a return to old form for this powerhouse sprinter.

And my dark-horse prediction to take some wins in the sprint, completely under the radar in 2007... chessclubloser.

[Chris Helwig]

Club race season is just around the corner. With daylight savings coming early this year LCW is running club races on March 20 & 27 that don't count for points and the races for points start April 3.

We have discussed who makes the club races great (past tense) Let's hear some predictions for 07.

Charlie is in Mexico all winter again, I assume he will be as fast as ever, or will his age finally catch up a bit?

Lot's of young riders, who will shine? Vince will be on Senior gears and a year more matue. Steve Meyer is beating pretty much everyone at the track this winter, he should turn some heards. Jordie Kofman will be around at least for some spring races and Throop progresses every year. I expect Brownie will be his usual gutsy self attacking relentlessly.

Julio is looking lean, I predict he will be strong this year. Carlos the wiley vet is always a factor, and on a similar note Tony should have a good year.

Graydon is switching to mostly road this year, will he unleash his full potential on Tuesdays?

What about some of the B group riders that came up to A later in the year? Tom Fernandez has some good power, Sibo made an impression on the A group this year and Choquette improves every year.

Can't wait for race season!

[the Superstar]

I think the core of veterans are pretty much known quantities and most or all of them should be bringing the same game this season. As Chris said, there is a small handful of B group dominators that may step up too. Graydon is the question mark - of all of us I know he rides the most below his potential on Tuesdays despite all his wins. This year his focus on the road should make him a very tough nut to crack, maybe impossible. What is so interesting is the group of youngsters coming up that Chris talked about - Jordie, Craig, Tim, Stevie, Vince, Connor, Brandon etc - these guys can bloody ride! I've never seen a crop coming up like this all at once. When I was their age I SUCKED - not that I'm Greg Lemond today but at least I can ride, but it's taken me years of dedication and building to get here. These guys piss me off, they don't even have any muscles yet but they have motors. It is going to be a great season with such a deep field.

Having said that, I am still going to kick all your asses.

[Blair]

You guys are making it very difficult to study!!! I would much rather be training right now and it seems I'm gonna have to in order to keep up with the 'posturing' going around!!!

Hope to get out to a few!

[old cervelo]

Okay it is time to piss some people off

Blah! Blah! BlaH! You guys are all hung up on club races. Sorry I mean't to say training races. From everyone mentioned aside from Charlie and a couple of strong juniors how many hit the top 10 in an Ocup race? top 15? top 20 even. How about a non Ocup event?

[2nd2fignon]

old_cervelo, I agree with you.

What's even worse is that too many riders prepare only for Scotland Rd and the crit course. When I hear people talking about the 'hills' of the P&FG course it's laughable. Sure, Ontario is not the Dolomites but look at the prov RR this year, High Park, Terra Cotta (although it could be hillier), and Ottawa. How many local riders will do well at these races?

If your goals are to race the club races ... then great. If you have OCA aspirations of success then don't prepare for club races and then just show up for OCA races.

Personally, I go to the races for fun (club and OCA). I definitely just show up at the club races for mid-week training while I'll give some thought to OCA races a couple of days before race day. We do a 2 hour ride before the tuesday night races, anyone interested in joining us can meet us at Greenway Park 1hr 50mins before the race or at Raymer's driveway 2hrs before the race.

[Chris Helwig]

Unless you are a junior or espoir where winning an Ontario race means you get carded or not (i.e. provincials or O Cup overall) I don't see a big difference between club races for Masters and O Cups for Masters. It is all just fun, whether it means winning a Tuesday night or winning Niagara, it is all not that serious.

In the end it is what you enjoy. Personally I sometimes find club races more enjoyable than even flat O Cups or O Cups I have done well at. Even for senior 1/2, if you are over 25 and winning O Cups it really doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of cycling. It won't get you a pro contract or on the national team.

Race what you enjoy, and obviously some of us really enjoy club races. Plus the training we get on Tuesday's is hard to beat and the more aggresive riders are and the harder the Tuesday races are the better.

[mann83]

Ah, I can already smell the rubber, hear the gears and feel the wind. Wait there's something else. Yes, a bit of testosterone is starting to brew. Race season must be getting closer. Can't wait.

[the Superstar]

Okay it is time to piss some people off

Blah! Blah! BlaH! You guys are all hung up on club races. Sorry I mean't to say training races. From everyone mentioned aside from Charlie and a couple of strong juniors how many hit the top 10 in an Ocup race? top 15? top 20 even. How about a non Ocup event?

Off the top of my head from that list, excluding Charlie and the juniors, I would say at least 10. Helwig, Joe T., me, Julio, Carlos, Graydon, Mike F., Jordie and Craig B. would handily meet your criteria. Maybe I've missed some. Not to mention Tony Frost 18th at worlds and 2nd at the last triathlon he did that qualified him for Hawaii.

[OhSoFast]

Interesting point Chris brought up. In my opinion the club races are what you make of them. I try to win every single race I'm in, because the more chances you get to practice winning, the more you want it again, and the easier it becomes (the whole once you've been there its easier to go back kind of thing).

If you want to come to the races to sit in the pack and get a training ride with a high average in, why not. I think that frequently explains the eternal lurkers in the pack like Graydon and to a certain extent Carlos.

Last season I was all gung ho on winnin' a few of the club races, but I soon learned I was no match in the final 300m when the big guns came out to play. So I soon settled into just going off the front as much as I could and spending time in the wind to get stronger. I think its awesome to be able to participate in a race where you can attack as often and as hard as you want and if you blow not worrying about the post race shakedown meeting and explaining the lost o'cup points by cause of a stupid breakaway attempt. You learn more about yourself and how you can ride, and quite frankly, in my experience last season I could make the club races harder than any O'cup just by how I chose to race.

I haven't entirely decided yet what my strategy will be this season. Should I try to develop my sprinting to compete on the inevitible 70km/h tailwind sprint on Scotland Road? Should I buy a stem with a negative 40 degree rise and just start time trialing when I'm off the front. Oh the problems in life...

OSF

[Graydon]

If you want to come to the races to sit in the pack and get a training ride with a high average in, why not. I think that frequently explains the eternal lurkers in the pack like Graydon and to a certain extent Carlos.

Be careful young grasshopper. Bravado alone won't win races.

[the Superstar]

"...eternal lurkers in the pack like Graydon and to a certain extent Carlos."

Were you at the same races as me? Carlos is the antithesis of lurking, he attacks until his head falls off. As for Graydon, maybe "lurk" is Khazakh for "blow your doors off in the sprint" LOL.

[Chris Helwig]

Most of what OhSoFast said is true If you add the term "relative" to Graydon and the phrase "when teamates are up the road" to Carlos I for the most part agree. Based on what we know Graydon is capable of he, isn't as aggressive as you might think. He still does a lot of work and a fair amount of attacking, but doesn't rip the field apart. Carlos is super aggressive until there is a favourable break up the road. It could be mistaken for "lurking" because at times later in races he will sit in.

[OhSoFast]

To clarify "relative lurking" in regards to Graydon would be more appropriate. When I know what he is capable of and I see him sitting in the pack while people are chasing it does make me raise my eyebrows a little. But I guess we can all look in the mirror and see a "lurker" if we compared ourselves to Charlie and his eternal attacking.

OSF

[2nd2fignon]

OhSoFast ... maybe fast, but in need of an eye exam.

1. Carlos is one of the _FEW_ riders in the club races who has some fitness and has any sense of tactics. In addition, he actually tries to make the races more active which is a benefit for you younger riders.

2. Training races are for training, IMNSHO. Just because Raymer isn't in every break doesn't mean he isn't working hard and getting the type of workout he wants. First off, everyone is glued to his chamois looking for anything resembling an attack. He also goes to the front for hard pulls 1 out of every 4 laps in the crit and stays there for a minimum of a lap. Plus he's doing a 1.5-2hr ride before the races.

Consider that when you jump away from the group you might be getting a 3-4 second delay (benefit) in response from everyone because they are glued to Raymer's ass.

Lastly, just because you don't see a good rider at the front the whole race or on the attack, don't assume that they are riding under their potential. Cycling is tough and there is a time to go slow. Sometimes you go to a training race during a rest phase just to stretch the legs. In Belgian mid-week races I've seen pros sit at the back and then two weeks later the same guys will pull through at 58+k/h in the break.

[Chris Helwig]

I totally agree Carlos has good fitness and is aggresive. But speaking of an eye exam, how can you say Carlos is one of the FEW riders with fitness. That is a ridicolous comment. There are at least a dozen riders with plenty of fitness at our club races, if not more. If you like I can provide a list for you, but I don't think it is necessary.

On another note, if you want to ride for 2hrs before a club race that is up to you, but you shouldn't use it as an excuse later. It is your choice to ride before hand.

We all know Graydon is scary strong. He shows it at time on Tuesdays, but sometimes he seems fine with not attacking as much as he could. Yes people sit on Graydon when he attacks, but they also sit on Charlie. Charlie simply keeps attacking and attacking until you can't follow anymore. We all know Graydon could do this if he chose to.

[the Superstar]

Club races are for training for those who use them for training. It's a truism. For some, they are an objective in and of themselves, and for others those two goals are one and the same (include me in that list). What are they training for anyways? OCA races where they will please their big sponsors and bring home a paycheck to feed their families if they win an OCup?

I'd be interested to hear who is on the list of fit and tactical riders. I assume 2tF was referring to Carlos being one of the few who possess that combination (as opposed to meaning that he is one of the few who is fit, which is patently ridiculous).

[Brownie]

Heres an idea, how about for one of the races we make it a battal royale with everyone racing for themselves and like its their last race ever.
Then we will see who is the fittest and and has the best tactics.

[JaJa]

Why don't you come out west. We race in mountains, each day I think about everything I eat, and how much it will effect me on climbs.

My last race out here in the fall was, Day 1 160km with 12,000 feet of climbing, Day 2 125km and 11,000 feet of climbing, with the final 11km, 2,950 feet.

So get a grip, I know the Scotland road "hill" can be the difference in winning and losing.

Your friend out west...:)

[old cervelo]

Regarding the superstars comments. No we are certainly not training for a paycheck.
Basically for me, and I am sure others, it comes down to goal setting and trying to attain those goals during the course of the season, like everything else in life. You sit down at the start of the season and decide what you want to reach for. This is what motivates me

[Chris Helwig]

While there seems to be some "debate" on the club races on some people taking them too seriously, others just using them for training etc. I think the one thing we can agree on is we are very lucky to have them and they are great training.

Even if you think people take them too seriously, you can't argue that they provide excellent training. Whatever your workout goal is, you should be able to achieve it on Tuesdays. If like some of us you also like the competition, there is lots of that to go around.

We are very lucky to have club races with lots of riders attending and some strong riders to make them challenging. I think it is safe to say that some of the Tuesday night races are as hard as many of the OCA races. One of the reasons London has always produced strong riders is it has always had a strong weekday race series.

[2nd2fignon]

I didn't think that my post was that ambiguous.

1. Carlos is one of the _FEW_ riders in the club races who has some fitness and has any sense of tactics.

The key word is in BOLD --- denoting the union of two items.

I stick to what I wrote.

On the topic of riders taking the Tuesday night races too seriously. I was trying to make the point that it seems to me that some riders take the Tuesday night races seriously but just show up to OCA races expecting better results. I'm only suggesting that there may be a mis-match of preparation, focus, and expectations. It's merely an opinion and I'm not suggesting that riders should not take the race's seriously. To each his/her own.

Finally, the reference to 2 hr rides before the races was merely an example to illustrate that it's diffcult to conclude that soemone is not fulfilling their potential to attack based on assessing their aggressiveness in the Tuesday night races alone. No excuse. You just don't know what their objectives might be in participating in the race. Personally, I only get a chance to get out on my bike 3 times a week so I tend to ride longer when I can --- because I like it. Again, to each his/her own.

[Chris Helwig]

I agree, to each his own. That goes both ways, don't come down on guys because they like to do well on Tuesday and get excited by the prospect of fun, hard club races.

I also totally agree Carlos combines fitness with good tactics. I do disagree that there are only a few people that fit that description. Just off the top of my head I would say Tony, Julio, Joe T, Forsdike , Charlie, Carlos, Graydon all combine the two fairly well.

I do think sometimes people mistake a lot of fitness for also having good tactics. It seems the strongest riders are usually seen as being the best tacticians. The key is to be able to combine the tactics with the horsepower to back it up. Charlie is so strong and can attack so repeatedly the fact that he makes all the winning breaks doesn't necessarily mean he is a master tactician. If your fitness is fairly mortal and you only have 2 or 3 matches to burn per race you may look like your tactics are not that good, but really you just can't cover everything. I knew exactly when almost every winning break went in club races last year, but I didn't really have the fitness to go with it or back it up.