Race Report August 22nd

[Chris Helwig]

Browne wins again.

Before my race report a couple housekeeping issues. First yellow line and safety. Tonight was not a great night as I saw at least 3 clear violations. I realize these may not have been the only offences but I will point out the 3 I saw. First Charlie swung way wide left almost to the other side of the road on the backside when he was attacking. Second Joe went across the yellow line on the hill (which is about the worst spot to violate) 3rd Tony made a clear violation after the start finish hill. We Cannot let this happen. I realize sometimes you get pushed out etc, but we can't make exceptions. Riders will be disqualified immediately for infractions.

Second issue is sportsmanship. We should realize that club races are for training and for fun and minimize and bickering etc. It goes both ways, but I propose for the rest of this year and looking to next year we each ride our own races. It seems when we get into team tactics is where hard feelings start when some riders are seen as blocking or not doing there share of work. There is really only 2 teams, it seems pointless to do any type of tactics. I will call Carlos to discuss an amicable agreement.

Alright enough of the lecture. Tonight was a fast night from the start as the break went early. Julio and Carlos set a fast pace early and Brownie quickly bridged up. I didn't think too much of it but they got a decent gap. Charlie put in an attack which was covered, but he did a patented 2 in a row Charlie attack and got across. Graydon put in a hard chase and brought us close and Tony and I got within about 50 feet on the home strectch. I was A, completely cooked and B thought we were so close the catch was inevitable. A bit of posturing and by the hill the gap was re established. A bit of a chase was mounted with some good chasing by Tony, Graydon, Gary Hudson, Brad and a few others, but the break was never to be seen again.

Hopefully Brownie can fill us in on what happened in the break, the rest of the story is from the remnants of the bunch. It was clear the break was out of sight and with about 2.5 laps to go the bunch started to do some attacks with Graydon, Tony and Joe laying out the most pain (at least from my perspective). The group finally split with 2 to go as Tony, Graydon, Joe and Mike Thornton made the front chase with myself, Gary Hudson, Paul Dean and Dean Lowrie chasing next and the rest slightly behind. Coming into the final lap it was clear in our group Gary was strongest so I did my best to help him bridge up but it wasn't enough. Graydon took the sprint for 5th from the other group. Meanwhile Brownie somehow managed to pull off the win with Charlie in second and I think Julio third and Carlos 4th. I can only assume with Charlie having already clinched the club championship there wasn't a big effort to separate the break.

Eload Stars:

Brownie - Takes another win.
Charlie - Never seems to slow down and can attack repeatadly.
Carlos - Back to form and in the break.
Julio - In another winning break.
Graydon - coming back on form
Mike Thornton - Best I have seen him this year
Tony - Did a lot of work tonight

[SIBO]

Well my first A race impression.... I thought it would be like on TV... there was alot of yelling and no team work. I think team work is important and a plan should be formed at the start and have a back up one also. If someone isnt on a team ...put them on one for the race.... work together, if someone is blocking for the break, work as a team to drop them. If someone on the team is dying then let them sit in if they can and have an agreement that they cant contest the sprint. Blatent violations the team is disqualified if life safety is jeprodized. Craig and Charlie worked as a team to widen the gap and get good training in. I think there was alot of guys that worked very hard tonight that if there was more team orginization could have been in contention. The Westhaven Tactics worked well to piss everyone off and if the CoachChrisers all dropped in a hammered and had quick pulls we could of left them in the dust.
Call me crazy, or an idiot I dont care but I think we could of been stronger than them tonight if we all were nice and worked together, Thats just my take

Sibo.

[Chris Helwig]

After a couple years of doing some degree of team tactics I feel strongly we should abandon them. There are only 2 teams and to block or not chase is ridiculous. Charlie races his own race to get the best workout he can. Brownie also does this. If you choose not to chase or block you are not getting the best workout you can on that night. If everyone rides there own race there should be much less hard feelings, yelling etc. If you are on a bad night or not feeling super strong then it is understandable if you can't help in the chase. I know I felt like my legs were blocks tonight. Once you realize you are not on a good night stay to the back and don't get in the way of chase efforts.

Those are my thoughts. I would be interested to hear input from others.

Chris

[2nd2fignon]

I don't ride for a team and I don't see anything wrong with team tactics playing out. This is an important part of racing and it's going to happen. There are many ways to play off of team tactics when you are on your own. I don't see Greg Cavanaugh or Glen Davis riding with teammates in Masters A racing and they don't seem to have a problem taking podiums. They just ride smart. As my friend would say, 'you can get away sometimes with being strong, but you can always get away with being smart'.

The tactic that plays out in many of our training races which I find somewhat frustrating is the 'hangers-on'. There a group of riders that just want to finish in the group. If the race was easy and stayed together to the end, that would suit them just fine. In general I understand that some riders have tough nights and can only manage to hang on while others feel a certain sense of accomplishment in just hanging on. My issue is that some of these riders under-break in corners, or worse, sit second wheel without any intention of going around for a turn. With the narrow roads having the 'hangers-on' sticking their nose close to the front ends up just being a nuissance.

With respect to the bickering, my attitude is if you have enough air to yap then you're not working hard enough. Shut up, suck in some more air, and put in an effort. If someone is pissing you off because they don't want to work then lay the boots to them --- that's what cycling is about.

My biggest concern is the general safety of these races. There is definitely some sketchy riding while others are taking risks that are completely unnecessary and dangerous. Nobody really cares if you finish 5th or 9th, but _EVERYONE_ will care if someone ends up a quardopalegic as a result of crash.

1. These are training races. Leave some space. If there is gutter action, leave an extra 1/2 foot for safety. If someone is running out of road ... let them in.

2. Beware that there are others behind you. Don't be a selfish ass on your bike.

3. Being a strong rider doesn't mean that you are a good rider. Just because you can chase an attack doesn't mean you should cause chaos behind you when you do so.

4. If you're hurting, that's not a license to make an erratic and dangerous move to jump onto a wheel.

Finally, in training races that are run on open roads with intermittent traffic, rule number one is safety first. Rule number two is: always follow rule number one.

[Chris Helwig]

I totally agree that in OCA races team tactics are a big part of racing. The problem in club races is there are only 2 teams and these teams make up over half the group and closer to 90% of the strong riders. When a break of 4 goes up the road with two Westhaven and two CC riders do we stop chasing? It breeds silly tactics and takes away from what should be a workout first. Believe me I want to beat Graydon, Tony and Brownie as much as I want to beat Charlie, Carlos and Julio.

Certainly very good points about safety. This should be our #1 concern by far.

Also a good point about staying further back if you are not contributing to the chase or not having a good night. I tried to help out where I could tonight, but after a couple laps I realized I wasn't on a good night and moved to the back to stay out of the way. Again I think part of it is the team tactics that is problematic as certain riders don't want to pull or are out and out blocking.

[Graydon]

I'd add Sibo to the list of e-load stars tonight... that guy was impressive in his first A-race. When many guys were sitting on, he was taking some serious pulls at the front. Way to go!

Yeah, tonight was utter chaos. Not sure why, but it was. It's bound to happen when guys get frustrated, and the reality is that certain tactics will frustrate guys. If YOU, intentionally or not, are employing those tactics, you have to expect there is bound to be someone out there who is going to express their frustration at you. This isn't mai-tai sipping and lawn bowling; a little anger, frustration, is bound to happen in our sport. I even saw it a lot when I was running, in sport where there is much less use of questionable tactics and opportunity to frustrate people. But the great part was that even at that level we were all friends after the race, and no one took it personally. It's part of the sport, some even consider it an essential part of their game, to trash talk, intimidate, etc... But once you roll over the finish line, you have to let it go... it's just a game, just a race, and if you can't laugh about it afterwards, you need to take a moment to think about people in this city/province/country/world who have real, legitimate issues to be pissed off about.

The one thing that is not excusable at any point during the race is the use of foul language. I don't think I heard any tonight, which was good, because there is a line that should not be crossed no matter how angry you are.

Lastly, as for the "team tactics" issue... I don't think we should try to enforce some sort of non-cooperation rule. If some people choose to ride hard or not so hard, that's their choice, and it's ultimately up to you, and you alone, to decide how to deal with everyone's goals and intentions in the race. These club races are great training opportunities, so use them as you like. That said, I have to be honest and say that the "two team" scenario in our club races is a myth. It is one team, Westhaven, vs. the rest of us. No doubt, they are always organized and always show up with a plan. In contrast, and I don't claim to speak for all the yellows, blues, or independents out there, but I can say for myself that I treat every single one of the LCW races as my own training race with my own goals. I'm pretty sure Tony does too, and if there was ever a "yellow" team in the A-race tonight or many other nights, I didn't see it. It was every man for himself, as I think it should be. So Westhaven has a few guys that block... good for them... they get an earful some nights, but it works many times. The solution isn't to tell Westhaven to stop doing what they obviously have found a way to do well, the solution is to ride harder and ride smarter. If you were mad that some people weren't doing enough pulling tonight, well, you should have been in the break. So next time, you are on the right wheel when the move goes, and worrying about who is blocking behind you isn't your problem anymore? There's always something new to learn each night....

And finally, I have to say, holy crap Brownie, 3 very strong blue and whites vs. you and you still take the win.... kudos to you, kid!

[Chris Helwig]

Good points Graydon. My main comment is that I think at least tonight some people did take it personal and were still upset after the race. Certainly if you don't like the team tactics you can make the break and or break up the chase group. FYI in years past i.e. the mid 90s when club races were booming in London we had a no team tactics policy. To my recolection it worked quite well and we had the biggest participation numbers ever.

Definately agree Sibo rode well and it was very impressive that Brownie won. In the Road to Paris DVD Hincapie is in the break with 3 Mapei riders. He is clearly the strongest but ends up getting worked over. I think it was Dirk Demol that said when you are one man in a group with 3 team mates you lose 100% of the time. I don't know how the kid did it, hopefully he writes a report.

[SIBO]

Thanks for the Kudos, I had visualized getting on Tony or Graydons wheel and pulling through to lead a breakaway earlier today on my Mtn bike but it just didnt seem to happen. I got what I needed out of the race, a great pounding. Its alot harder in the Big Leagues than one might expect. Maybe our group rides should include some tactic stuff,code words for doing certain things and the race nights are just race how you feel, if not feeling great or need a zone 3-4 ride go to the B's . Keeping the numbers up in both groups i think would make it more enjoyable for all. Maybe do team tactics in the B group so those guys get the experience for racing... I like saying those guys. I think Im still a b+ racer but will be A- come spring. There wasnt a single crash or even any close calls so Kudos to all tonight...

Sibo

[Brownie]

Just about every lcw race I've done this year i've used it as training, that is why I attack and attack and attack, to get stronger. I dont care if i win or lose, just as long as i got the most out of it. I see it the same as Graydon and others that it is everyone against westhaven.

my report:
when it was the 4 of us at the very start, it was Charlie and I doing most of the pulls with the occasional pull from Julio and Carlos. Then as it went on with about 3 laps to go, we started to work together, everyone taking good pulls. on the last lap it was obvious they were gonna try and wear me down with some of their tactics. First Carlos attacked and then Julio attacked, this repeated for the whole lap and I just stayed on their wheels. It was pretty fun, espcially the sprint cause I almost lost it, I lead them all out on the finishing stretch and then I finished them off, but not before I gave them that glimmer of hope of beating me to the line, and then I turned it on and ripped that glimmer of hope away from them like it was a velcro shoe.
....almost lost it, what am I saying?
total domination is what it was. hahaha jk
all in all, it was a good job by Charlie, Julio and Carlos.

[2nd2fignon]

Graydon is right ... there is only one team riding as a team. I don't think Westhaven comes in with a plan --- other than to get a break going with numbers and a mix that favour them. I doubt there is any detailed plan ahead of the race, they're just racing smart, racting to what's going on.

It's just one man's opinion but you guys in yellow are weak on tactics (and lack expereince). Graydon and Craig are getting wins but that's a result of horsepower and the fact that they're beating 38, 45, 53, ... year old guys.

I mean no disrespect to the current racers but I think the calibre of riders in the mid-90s was much, much higher. Without Pat racing, you don't have anyone like: Pedersen, Bogue, Hans, Blindert, and Hibberd. I don't think anyone currently is a threat to lap the field at Springbank in the 1/2 race. Two of the guys I just listed did just that. When I came to London in 1991/92 there were like ~12 Senior 1/2s racing for LCC/Forest City. Just off the top of my head: Pedersen, Bogue, Kent S., Marco, Julian Base, Nick Dwyer, Brian Harrison, Kevin Clowes, Don Andrews, ... Tony can you fill in any other names? The early season sunday Delaware races were HARD. I can remember one in 1992 that Eric Wohlberg was out laying the boots to us. The scene locally is nothing like it was. Just one man's opinion, of course.

[Chris Helwig]

Certainly I wasn't trying to compare the depth of talent we had in the mid 90's to today, just offered it as an example of an era where we had a no team tactics rule and it worked well. We had amazingly good workouts in those races, some you could say was because of the higher talent level, but I think some was because there were no alliances.

I don't think it is a fair comment to say we lack experience or tactics, because in almost no instance this year have we used team tactics. If we all decided to work together to actively block etc the racing would be very negative, which I guess is my whole point.

Your point about Craig and Graydon is a good one, they win because they are strong, but it is funny how sometimes people confuse riders who are super strong for riders who have great tactical sense. Charlie does combine the two well, but when Charlie went the second time in a row to bridge to the break it was only too obvious that was the move to go with. Tactically I knew exactly what to do, but when you are already two beats away from your max it doesn't matter how smart you are you can't go with the move.

[the Superstar]

I have two comments. firstly about the team tactics, I concur with Craig, Chris and Graydon. I want to hit them as hard as anyone on Westhaven. My teammates change as race conditions change. Last week I was working with Brownie, last night he was my bitter enemy. Westhaven racing as a team just makes it more of a challenge and they have their reasons for doing it (they're gay LOL!). Early in the year when Westhaven was much stronger because of their training camps, they really took the racing to us and had us on the ropes. The exception is when riders who don't want to bring the break back get stuck in the paceline and then don't pull through. That is bad cycling etiquette. In the pros you end up in the ditch. If you don't want to chase, go sit on at the back and no one cares. Even in a break, sit on if you like, just don't screw up the rotation.

Secondly about the early-mid 90s versus today as far as talent goes. On paper, with Harrison, Hibo, Bogue, Pederson, Blindert, Shea and the 1/2 "B" league of Base, Helwig, Liokossis, Candiago, etc, it would seem to have been WAY better back then. In practice is does not seem to be the case in the club races for some reason. We've had some **** hard hitting races in recent years and I am stronger now than I was then, but I was still hanging in back then. I can't explain it. For sure though, today in terms of sheer top-league horsepower, we have Pat, Charlie and Graydon, with Brownie looking like he could join them in the future and that's it. But Pat used to lap the field by himself at Hyde Park. As strong as he is now, he was even stronger then. Bogue won Springbank, CHIN against Graeme Miller, Prov. RR up the escarpment, Hibo podiumed at Beauce ITT, Pederson was 2x national cyclocross champ, won back to back springbanks and was in the winning break at olympic trials, harrison missed the pan am games track team selection only because of a broken crank, podiumed at provincial rr that bogue won. blindert was 17th at '96 Olympivc trials where Bauer won and Wohlberg was second. That was probably the most stacked club race scene around. And the season Wohlberg raced with us, he made these guys look bad. He lapped Bogue and Pederson at the very same circuit we raced last week at Exeter road. He lapped the field at Springbank and then took Bogue with him for another lap - amazing. We certianly have nothing like that right now, but most nights the racing is what you make of it.

[2nd2fignon]

1. I don't think riders in the Tuesday night races know how to block, or more accurately, how to disrupt a chase (without being a complete ass).

2. It would be very unlikely a pro would put you in the ditch for 'trying' jump in as second wheel. If you tried a lame stunt like that, you would first get an ear-full from several riders then one of two things would happen: (a) they would just rotate around you like you weren't there or (b) a counter group would form on the other side of the road. If (a) didn't send the message after several rotations, (b) would definitely happen because riders (who have a clue) in a break rarely want to keep more people in the break than are willing to work. Putting someone in the ditch is extreme. Closing the door on someone 'aggressively' is one thing, but pushing them into an obstruction intentionally is very rare.

Depending on the speed of the break and wind, you can make things very uncomfortable for people sitting on the back of a break too.

3. Superstar, I read your descriptions of the Palmares of riders from the 90s and they sound pretty good to me. Line them up against the Palmares of current riders and it will be obvious why so many 'old' guys to well now.

Just to add detail to your list:

- Brian Harrison was a national champ on the track
- Bogue won the Ontario Cup (twice, I think)
- Hibberd was only beaten by Levi Leipheimer at the TT at Beauce (do I have that right?)
- Pedersen lapped the field with Franie Andreau at Springbank
- Hans was a Provincial RR champ

Apologies if I made a mistake, this is all from memory.

[Chris Helwig]

I know for sure Hibbard was 3rd at the TT at Beauce. I am pretty positive Wohlberg was one of the two riders that beat him. The other may have been Leipheimer, but I am not sure he was on the scene quite then (1995) In my opinion that was the biggest result at a national/international race in the last 16 years from a local rider.

Pederson won Springbank from a break that Andreau was in. Pederson soloed on the last couple laps. Nick Dwyer who was another big gun on the local scence beat Andreau in the sprint for I believe second. I don't think they lapped the field, but I am not 100% on that.

Bogue was also silver medalist at Nationals Crit in the mid 90s, another impressive local result.

[bike-racer]

Julio" gonzo"
8 first place results all in the first year as senior 1,2nd r.r in beuce up Mt.Royal,back to back Delaware R.R vitories senior 1 O.C.A,medals at nationals,medals at Canada Summner Games ,American Classics winner, 1st pl Ohio breakaway with JEFF PIERCE 1ST american to win a stage in the tour de france. I could go on ! Now about last night,Graydon is quite right we are all friends and we should leave all our differences at the finish line when we cross it.I've had my share of words with Tony,Graydon and my own mates but it ends after the race. Lets just keep it safe and friendly at our club races, at my age its all about having fun not about being a pro. Although I'm guilty at times during club races of letting my emotions get the better of me, we all have to be adults. Also there are no team tactics pre planned before our club races we just make them up as we go. Sibo great ride you were there,BROWNIE you beat a 43,45,54 yearold should'nt of been too dificult!!!!!!!!!

[Chris Helwig]

Good post Bike_Racer.

I made sure I said last 16 years as that is all I have knowledge of, I know Julio had some very top notch results before then.

It all should be fun for sure. My suggestion for changing the tactics a bit is to just institute one simple rule. No intentional interfering with a paceline when team mates are up the road. This was the main point of contention on Tuesday. It was obviously a good break for the Blue and Whites so I don't expect help from Joe or other riders on that team. The ill feelings and word exchanges happen when a rider gets involved in the rotation and when it is there turn to pull they just stop and mess up the rotation. If you don't want to pull no one has a problem with it, but just sit at the back out of the rotation and I think everyone would get along a lot better and have more fun.

Chris

[the Superstar]

I'm not mad at anyone. Tuesday night club races are about as intense fun as you can get, they are unbelievably thrilling for me, still after so many. Sure I yell at people to get them to do what I want, usually because I've made a stupid mistake and am in danger of missing the break! Charlie does too, he's always telling people what to do. Whether you listen or not is up to you, but he tries! After the race, I pat them on the back, just like I did with Dean L. on Tuesday. I might yell at Paul for not pulling through but then I congratulate him on his 5th at provincials RR. For me nothing goes past the finish line. It's all good fun, it's just very intense good fun :D.

BTW, I didn't mention Julio because he was already done the big leagues by the time I was in 1/2 and Hibo and Harrison were racing, but I remember visiting his house once and he had to throw away all the trophies that were not top three because he didn't have room on his mantle for all of them. I have to spread my trophies out so they fill up one shelf on my IKEA Billy book case.

[2nd2fignon]

Hey boys, let's keep the discussion of training races and racer calibre make up to the last 20 years!! I'm trying to block out my results from 17+ yrs ago ... Julio was mixing it up 25 years ago!!!! In all seriousness, I think everybody appreciates the fact that Julio is a classy rider and a nice guy. _ALL_ of us 'older' guys should make an effort to be this way in order to positively mentor the younger riders.

One important thing to note regarding the 90s is the influence of Ross Chafe. A couple of the guys who have been mentioned as doing well in the 90s have pointed out that Ross was an important influence. Having someone of Ross' calibre devote time and drive young guys to Quebec for racing is an invaluable contribution that can't be overlooked.

Minor correction: Jeff Pierce was not the first American to win a Tour stage (Davis Phinney was). For those who don't know who Jeff Pierece is, he was one of the best US climbers in the 80s. When Jeff went on a climb, you knew to get on that move.

Here is something funny for those who think racing is tougher now than it used to be in the past. There was an article about 2 years ago where Greg Lemond recounted a phone call with Jeff Pierce. Apparently, some US postal rider was telling Jeff Pierce about how much harder racing was now than in the 80s. Two weeks later, with 500 miles of riding in his legs and at 45 yrs of age, Jeff finished 20 places ahead of this Postal rider at the Downers Grove crit.

[Brownie]

Julio" gonzo"
BROWNIE you beat a 43,45,54 yearold should'nt of been too dificult!!!!!!!!!

ahah you are right,but what do you want me to do lose to them? slow my sprint down to make it more even? They are my only competition and I use them to get better, cause in such short races as these club races, even a 60 year old can be strong. So, I could careless how old anyone is, you are all competition in my eyes. Not only that, but the three mentioned are the top riders in the club races, so easy or not, im still gonna open up a can on everyone cause its fun and actually gets people racing.
I may have come off as a little cocky on here, but im really not, its all just to get a rise out of some people haha.... worked.
so stop all the little cat fights, and putting everyone down cause they arent as good as the riders were 17 years ago.This is a more modern, younger generation of racers than 17 years ago we are dealing with obviously, so encourage, don't discourage.

[2nd2fignon]

Brownie,

I think you and Graydon are good riders, I'm just sorry there aren't a bunch of other riders at your level (excluding Charlie) who could consistently beat you up and make you not only work hard, but force you race smart too, on a regular basis.

I would love to lay 'the buckwheat' to you like Paul Murray and Steve Bauer (on a couple of occasions) did to me when I was a kid at the old Mt Nemo races. The reality is that it isn't likely to happen. You're taking the right approach to the races and from what I read of your race report; Julio, Carlos, and Charlie did exactly what they should have to work you over. If Tim and Vince continue to develop --- they could hassle you next year (and that would be a good thing). Now get some sleep, it's good for your blood count.

The other thing we're lacking in these races is a hill. Other than Graydon and Charlie, when I see locals at an OCA race with hills, no one seems too optimistic.